Sexism and racism in old videos

Hello Sir Brian, I cannot find a single sentence whereby I wasn’t respectful, I respect everybody’s right to free speech and I hope that others give me the same respect, if I’m by perchance not I trust that I will be suitably humbled.

Enjoy life and don’t take it too seriously :hugs:🧙🏻‍♂

This is just stupid. I’m really not sure how else to respond to this. Calling people snowflakes because they finally have the courage - and the backing - to speak up is an insult. To use a constructed, exaggerated story like this to diminish that is far more offensive than any of the examples in this made-up-story itself. Positioning it as a ‘joke’ isn’t valid - ‘the truest words are spoken in jest,’ as they say. Posts like this do pretty much zero to advance the discussion.

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Not written in hate mode!!

Yes, it is stupid, very!

To get this straight: I meant NO offence to NO ONE, I also meant NO disrespect to NO one.

You can please some of the people all of the time and you can please all of the people some of the time, but, you cannot please all of the people all of the timeAbraham Lincoln (supposedly)

I think I see your point, maybe. Are you saying that no matter what you do, somebody will be offended?

If that is the case, you might be correct. But I would counter that we must not needlessly offend someone. Further that as we have opportunity, we should change those things that cause offense when those changes can reasonably be made.

Lastly, it is never stupid to raise concerns and seek clarification when seeing something. I applaud the OP for speaking out and starting this discussion.

Edit: also the OP mentioned that he saw some things that he had questions about. He did not say that he was offended. Being a new user, he was also unaware of how inclusive Sufferlandria is. Had he remained silent, those questions would have gone unanswered. He asked for our advice and he got it.

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Exactly this @Sir_Brian_M

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I would be impressed if you were to explain your plan to address the blatantly misogynistic verses in Violator as I pointed out in Sexism and racism in old videos - #61 by Heretic

You are correct that one should not minimize the experience of others and dismiss their feelings. People have feelings for whatever complicated reasons they have them.

On the other hand, if those feelings are being used to argue for a given policy the relevance of those feelings comes into play.

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That translation alone feels like it may well be 100% relatable for many women today. The misogyny and looking over our shoulder that we have normalised dealing with every day absolutely sucks. However that is a digression into another topic.

The original Aria I believe (and may well be wrong, but we’re talking Puccini here aren’t we?) is a young woman asking her father to help her buy the ring she needs to marry the man she loves? Back in the day, parental support, and having a dowry was a requirement to marry for nearly all women. The man would not have been allowed to marry her either if his own parents were still alive and in control of his inheritance, because they needed him to bring money into the family via his wife. Times were hard and the drive to continue to family line were very strong. Hence why she needs her own father to help her. It’s a story of the times really. The history shouldn’t necessarily be banned because culture/societal thinking has changed. It can be used as a reflection, or a lesson.

These days, money is still a requirement for marriage in many in non Western cultures. The Aria provides a different perspective on how society has changed in some cultures and not others.

Sorry off at a tangent here. Are you saying the Aria theme is sexist because it’s saying women are treated as objects and have no autonomy? If so, then it absolutely has legitimacy in today’s Western world. It’s not sexist, it’s accurate.

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I was not discussing its legitimacy or accuracy in its current or original context. In fact, it is one of the most popular arias of all time.

The question is, if we wish to remove sexism from the videos, should we be using lyrics that treat that fact as normative.

Yes hear you, but doesn’t the Aria also talk to how young men were also controlled by the societal constructs of the time though? More about control of young people than women specifically. Does that still make it sexist? I don’t trust the translation to be fair though. I know when I translate from Afrikaans to English a lot of the nuance, meaning and intent is lost. I can only go by my interpretation of the translation of the lyrics and what I k ow of the opera story rather than the Aria taken in isolation.

Agree, if it is sexist, it should be changed.

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And absolutely no we should not. The lyrics and the text and the visual imagery in the videos are all relevant and should adhere to acceptable standards.

I know another poster was trying to point out that we have a wide range of what is ok. I find the OPS original video text sexist. But other women don’t. Some may find this Aria sexist, I don’t. It’s very hard to cater to the standards of all, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. I’ve never seen Sir David get defensive when these things are picked up. He and his team bend over backwards to correct issues like this.

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You are correct about the opera, but its use in the video is out of context, and therefore we need to treat it as it stands. Many things that look sexist and racist to us were actually ground breaking in their time.

To my way of thinking, there is a difference between studying sexist and racist material as part of history, and its use in a different situation.

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I understand. I did not object to the old Sufferlandrian flag, and I am well aware of the history of the period.

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Did you look at the lyrics to La Donna È Mobile?

Yeah those lyrics are massively sexist. But the Aria in the Suf video is O Mio Babbino Caro?

La Donna È Mobile is in the first recovery intervals.

O Mio Babbino is in the recovery intervals right after that.

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I feel the difficulty is that anyone can find parts of things that may be objectionable and keeping it in context is important. Tight fitting lycra is objectionable in some cultures, but most of the pictures on the site feature them, there are certainly many more examples if we look for them. The original question asked about what were fairly easily observable statements made on programmes. If you don’t speak Italian then you are unlikely to be aware of this in this context and it is unlikely to influence any belief system I’m sure that many people who indulge in sexist attitudes and statements are not quoting this opera as a justification for their beliefs.

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geez, that’s an Aria from Verdi’s opera Rigoletto, composed in 1851! we need to put this into an historical context or otherwise wouldn’t even be allowed to quote from the Bible

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Yes, we should keep things in context. Many of the bicycling broadcasts from the 1980s would not ‘fly’ today. Somethings should be ‘fixed’. Others we have to leave alone to represent where we have been and to prevent making ‘those’ mistakes again.

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@jmckenzieKOS, @IsiSchneider_KoS:

I am well aware of where it comes from. Context is everything.

The old Sufferlandrian flag did not bother me, but SYSTM banned it, and they should be consistent.

I have no problem with the aria in the opera. Used out of context with the lyrics in an inspirational setting, is problematic. If it the music was used without the lyrics, it would be fine.

The Horst Wessel Lied has a catchy tune as well, and I am willing to bet that the vast majority of people here would have no idea of its historical use. Would that be OK?