Half Monty Ramp Test

I had great difficulty getting up to and holding my prescribed heart rate in the 20-min heart part of the test.

Basically, had to hold my FTP (257W) to stay at the prescribed HR (145-151). This was not attainable.

Also, very frustrating when the program was suggesting that you should have a lot of reserve power and not to push it. I was dying just barely getting to the low end of the range I should have been in.

Any explanation for this?

First, I’m no expert so I’m just theorizing here.

Perhaps you overcooked the ramp portion? Were you using a smart trainer? If not is it possible you went a little further than you could actually manage at a consistent cadence just to finish a step on the ramp?

If a smart trainer, did you stop when you couldn’t pedal anymore or did you get out of the saddle or slow your cadence to try to mash out a few more seconds resulting in your HR peaking up?

Those things might end in overstating your HR for the constrained effort section.

Curious what the SUF scientists would say about this.

Edit: I moved the thread to the Fitness Test topic.

Edit 2: WELCOME!!

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What cadence did you hold for the effort? Generally lower cadence results in a lower HR, but not always.

Held 90 to 95 rpm right to the end
Power and heart rate went up in tandem

Thanks Glen
I don’t think I overcooked the ramp portion? I was using a smart trainer. Kept a constant 90 to 95 rpm
Stopped about 10 sec into the 13 step
I stopped when I couldn’t pedal anymore and did not get out of the saddle.
I have done ramp test before without the 20min heart rate hold so have some experience with how to do them.
Maybe it is my age (65), legs give out way before my heart on longer time lines. On short er time lines when it is the reverse.
It is the same in the run or swim part of my workouts.
Thanks again for your interest

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Just a couple of thoughts. So it sounds like you’ve done it right. I’d be super curious what Sir @Coach.Mac.C or Sir @Coach.Neal.H have to say in your case. The HM test has been done by a SUF ton of people by now so I’m sure they’d have data on athletes of a certain age.

Also curious if you made it all the way through the constrained effort portion (despite feeling it was unsustainable) or if the results indicated a problem with your test.

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Had to stop 3 times for a few seconds to regroup in the last half.
Heart rate dropped 5 bpm below target so I would pick up the watts for 30 sec or so to get it closer to target.
So I guess I really did not complete the constant heart rate portion properly.

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Don’t they send you an email or something about the results? Or isn’t there a report summary or something when you click on the calendar for that workout?

I know for Full Frontal if there’s an issue with one of the 4 tests, it will say that that portion was invalid and make adjustments to some of the metrics accordingly.

Edit: those short stops and adjustments may not have been enough to alter the results.

If you don’t hear back from the coaches here, you’ll know soon enough if the results were accurate when you do some workouts based on those new numbers. My recent HM had my FTP and MAP drop quite a bit but doing the workouts at those numbers is “just” doable at the moment so I know they’re accurate.

Yes you do get results with the half Monty
There were no errors
In a nutshell it was just very hard to complete the constrained portion. Almost like doing an all out 20min FTP test.
Also maybe of importance my FTP went from a start of 220w to 257w after the test.
Big jump so my have effect the test parameters.
Would be interesting on the coaches perspective

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Well you’ve gained what I’ve lost so the universe is unfolding as it should :joy:.

Imma continue to track this thread cuz I am curious to hear from others. Fwiw, I don’t find that constrained effort easy by any stretch but NEVER as hard as Full Frontal.

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One of my favorite parts about this job is seeing the large-LARGE variance in physiology across the population. You are by no means alone in these feelings!

After releasing HM we’ve collected lots of data and found that the variation between Maximal sustained (20-60sec) heart rate and Threshold Heart Rate is much larger than we expected.
What that means is for one side of the bell curve, the constrained HR target is super super easy, for the majority it’s a moderate effort, but still on the ‘easy’ side for a test. For another end of the bell curve, that target is indeed at or above their threshold.

We are working on an updated version of HM with modified Constrained HR values that will cover more users like yourself.

That isn’t super helpful for you until it’s actually released… So in the meantime, what you can do for any future HM tests until the release of the new version is to hold a steady HR 15-20bpm the target suggested by the ramp. You’ll see some in-app messaging to go harder, but ignore those, the app will still calculate your FTP based on that effort as long as your heart rate is relatively stable for the duration.

For training, start by dropping your FTP by 5-10% and dropping your cTHR to 148 (or whatever your previous FF cTHR was).

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One of my favourite parts of being a member of this community is that the SUF Scientists who concoct these things will weigh in and answer questions directly. Thanks for being here Sir @Coach.Mac.C

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The theory is you can’t overcook it - the biggest issue with Half Monty is not being able to hang on long enough to get the HR up high enough to make the FTP section meaningful quite often (i.e. the VO2 side of things kills people off fast (it does me) and the HR target is then too low in the FTP section, resulting in an FTP result that doesn’t really work.

You’re the opposite, so that’s really interesting - and as you’ve been smashing it at a good cadence on both sections, I’d say this is quite unusual.

It feels like its ‘one of those days’ where one big effort has simply crucified you on that day,and there’s not enough left in you for the next bit - which could in theory (total guesswork) be caused by residual fatigue, which is often characterised by HR struggling (but that usually then has a side effect of lower cadence as well).

The problem with the ‘internet’ here is this is all individual, so in the spirit intended - is there any chance that your FTP is higher? Forgive this comment (without history) as you are just as likely a professional athlete and know your numbers inside out. just a thought. If new to the structured training thing, it can sometimes take a few tests and similar efforts to get to that eventual number.

I just did one of these myself on Friday, one of the few successful HM’s I’ve done in the last couple of years, so happy to compare notes/data if it’s of any help.

EDIT: Dammit - this is probably irrelevant now - Mac has answered above. Duh. Should really read the whole thread. Last comment still applies though if you want

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Thanks everyone for your input. This is great.

After sleeping on it I think it is that I just do not have any bike endurance at this point in time.

I am an age group triathlete (certainly not a pro) but do train at a high level.

Current VO2 max is north of 60, if you can believe Garmin. My race FTP is around 270W when in top shape. So not to far off with this test at 257W

I have been concentrating on running and swimming over the last 2 months with only indoor recovery rides on the bike. I also had my FTP set low at 230W before the test because I felt very weak on the bike.

I have the power the heart but no bike legs at this time so the test just took it out of me more quickly than it should have.

Time to work harder on the bike, my favorite part of a triathlon. (Don’t tell my swim coach😊)

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Just adding a supplemental idea. From your last FF, you’ll have a ratio of ftp to map. Since your HM map is good, you could apply that ratio to approximate your new ftp. It’s an educated guess, but could be validated by a few endurance workouts to see if the ratios are still valid.

New FTP = New Map x Old FTP / old Map

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Can I query my 4DP results. I’ve self assessed my fitness and I’m pretty sure my FTP result should be around 400 watts, but when I go out at that pace in the 20 mins test my heart rate goes through the roof, I start to feel all weird, and I can’t hold the watts. This can’t be right.

Ps. Before you all accuse me of being inexperienced, or a newb, I can assure you I’ve watched a lot of racing on tv and it clearly can’t be that hard. That tractor :tractor: guy sits on the front for ages and isn’t even sweating!!! :sweat: :biking_man: :biking_man::biking_man::biking_man::biking_man:

Pps. The only other explanation I can think of is my trainer is not calibrated correctly. I might send a job through to the minions on that!

:gift::christmas_tree: Merry Christmas everyone!!:christmas_tree::gift:

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I honestly can’t tell if you’re joking or not. :man_shrugging:

If not, how have you arrived at 400 watts? Half Monty? Full-Frontal? What type of trainer are you using? How are you measuring power (virtual watts? power meter? smart trainer?

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Sorry, I am joking! :upside_down_face: apologies.

Being serious for a second though. Mac c’s comments about human variability are really interesting. That must make their job difficult, but also fascinating!!

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I figured you were but was missing a :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: or a :wink: or a :joy:. It’s nigh impossible to tell otherwise and I would have bet that you were but best not to guess. There are some pro level folks in our midst. I was doing a ride with Ian on the AWWIB and his upper end endurance pace via his head unit was 369 or something. To my 175 :rofl:

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